The Counter support skill

Summary:

a problem I saw in it

The Counter support skill

Aleph Ozone 28 Dec 2014 21:02

Counter

You have a chance to counter an enemy's attack with one of your own. At creation, you must choose whether you want to counter attacks made with weapons or special attacks. Weapon attacks include all attacks made with weapons, including unarmed attacks, Weapon Techs, and weapon-related Command Skills such as Jump or Deathblow. Special attacks include various other Command Skills and Techs, such as Slots, Stat Breaks, and Magic Attack Techs. Special attacks may also include other forms of attack as the master sees fit - for example, a rod that fires bolts of energy may be considered a special attack, rather than a weapon attack. You must also choose one of the following methods to counter with:

Normal attack (30% chance): You make a normal attack roll, dealing damage as normal if you hit.
Command Skill (30% chance): Choose ANY Command Skill. It may be the Command Skill your character normally knows, or it may be a completely different one; the only restriction is that Chakra and Health are not allowed as Counter Skills. When the counter is activated, the Command Skill takes effect as it normally would.
Tech (20% chance): You counter with a Tech, paying the MP cost as normal. You must either choose a specific Tech that you always counter with, or you may counter with any Tech you choose - this decision is up to the Master.
Mirror Tech (20% chance): The attack you counter with is exactly the same as the one used by the attacker, but uses your Strength or Magic to determine its effects. You must pay any MP cost associated with the power. At the Master's option, a Mirror Tech may carry a different elemental affinity than the original attack, or it may automatically be of the opposing element. Mirror Techs cannot counter normal attacks.
Using a Counter skill requires no expenditure of Speed Points. You do not have to counterattack if you do not wish to do so. Note that counterattacks cannot be countered in return.

Ok, so… Why is it that using a Tech as a counter has a worse chance than using a Command Skill? I mean, considering you can counter with ANY Command Skill, not just the one you actually have, there's no reason to choose the Tech Counter when you can take the Command Counter and choose to counter with X-Magic. Not only will you be able to deal more damage, the chances of triggering the counter are better.

Last edited on 28 Dec 2014 21:04 by Aleph Ozone Show more

Re: The Counter support skill

Doresh 28 Dec 2014 22:05

Interesting observation. Going the X-Magic route does have a higher chance of triggering, but I would say this requires you to use two techs every time, with the increased MP. That burns through your MP fast.

Tech Counters happen less often, but at least you don't have to Alpha Strike every time.

Going by the rules, Tech Counters essentially let you use Charge Power Techs for free (sometimes, at least), whereas X-Magic only works on vanilla Techs with MP cost AFAIK.

Last edited on 28 Dec 2014 22:08 by Doresh Show more

Re: The Counter support skill

Aleph Ozone 29 Dec 2014 17:51

I would say the "burning mp faster" thing isn't much of a problem, but this is just the way I play. I can understand why someone would want to use a Tech Counter instead of an X-Magic Counter…

But I don't think it's fair for Tech Counters to have a worse chance of happening. Sure, they save mp, but they will never be as strong as X-Magic (1 attack tech vs. 2; 1 healing tech vs. a healing tech and a positive status effect). What I'm trying to say is, you could argue an X-Magic Counter having a better chance of success balances the fact they burn through more mp, but the mp burning is already balanced by being more powerful than normal techs, so the better chance of success makes it unfair for people who want to use normal techs instead of X-Magic…

What you said about charge techs… that's an interesting point, I hadn't considered that. Now that is something I'd consider it being worth of giving Tech Counters a smaller chance of success, but it's not worth it if it means regular techs get the short end of the stick. I'd personally suggest Tech Counters having a 30% chance of success, unless it's a charge tech in which case it'd be only 20% chance of successs…

A problem arises though: Normal Attack Counters become pointless, since they're not as strong as techs and would have the same chance of success… honestly, consdering how underwhelming normal attacks seem in ZODIAC (a problem that people here seem to be trying to fix) I'd give Normal Attack Counters a 50% chance of success, maybe more, maybe 45% or 40% if 50% is too overpowered, although I don't think it is… gotta test all this.

Re: The Counter support skill

Doresh 30 Dec 2014 22:32

Seeing how there is also no drawback in picking the Tech Counter that allows you to use any tech, and that Peep can be replaced entirely by a 1 MP Tech, it seems some Secondary Skill choices are more flavor and specific-FF-entry-emulation than anything.

And I would say the Normal Attack Counter could be effective if you could drop your Command Skill and pick Concentrate instead.

Re: The Counter support skill

Aleph Ozone 31 Dec 2014 00:04

An insteresting point with regards to Concentrate, but I don't think an option should be limited to only be good with a certain combo, unless making it good outside the combo would make the combo itself overpowered.

Speaking of Concentrate, I once considered (and that's something I still want to do) making a character focused entirely on critical hits, based on Saix from Kingdom Hearts (in Days, Saix is mediocre to average in most stats, but he has maxed critical damage and critical chance). The problem is that in Zodiac, normal attacks are mediocre. Even with Concentrate, by the time you have a decent chance of critical, a balanced character would have plenty of techs to cause much more damage than your critical attacks can. Not to mention regular attacks can't hit multiple enemies at the same time, or cause status effects… so a build focused on normal attacks is just not viable.

Yeah, I understand the whole emulation thing… but in the end this is still a tabletop rpg system, and I think making things balanced should come before emulating the games.

EDIT: I personally think Peep should be a Support Skill, while Counter and Concentrate should be Command Skills. There's others that should be changed like that…

Last edited on 31 Dec 2014 00:07 by Aleph Ozone Show more

Re: The Counter support skill

Doresh 07 Jan 2015 18:42

Normal Attacks do have a couple problems, especially how you can replace it with a low-level Power Attack (or higher level with Short-Range and Inacurrate to be closer to a Normal Attack) that will serve you much better. Maybe a boost for Concentrate for those looking for an alternative?

Making Peep a Support Skill and sounds lovely. Sure, it steps away from the FFIV version it is based on, but several later games have "perma-Peep" abilities and equipment. And making it cost zero both in MP and actions really gives it a noticable edge over Scan.

Not so sure about Counter being a Command Skill, as you can't actively use it (though you could make a variation that lets you enter a counter stance, forgoing your action in favor of guaranteed Counters). Not so sure about Concentrate though. the other attack Command Skills always seem to have something to balance their increased usefulness, but Concentrate only adds stuff.

Re: The Counter support skill

Aleph Ozone 09 Jan 2015 18:59

Yeah, I see your point… I really only suggested Counter and Concentrate for Command Skills due to them being more powerful than most other support skills.